Author Topic: MS Access 2013 and EAP files  (Read 11380 times)

bholtzman

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2016, 02:50:50 am »
Thanks, Geert, I really do appreciate your comments and suggestions.

As far as document generation and HTML, I feel our approach has a definite advantage. I can customize the heck out of that. I've built modules in Access to export HTML files many, many times.

I have not seen how EA handles BPMN. Is there a video online somewhere?

As far as regretting the decision later, I don't get the sense that Paolo feels that way. In fact, he seems very comfortable with the direction they've taken, and has even been able to add his own data manipulation tools, letting him do things that ordinary users can't. It sounds like if he wanted to add a prefix to every object in one package (or do something more complex), he has a GUI for it.

Bill

Geert Bellekens

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2016, 03:25:51 am »
OK, seems I can't convince you.

Then I want to reserve the right to "I told you so" in a year from now ;)

With regards to BPMN, see http://www.sparxsystems.com/resources/webinar/partners/bpmn/enhanced/BPMN2-enhancements.htm around minute 22 or so you see how EA handles the tagged values with the extra metadata.

Geert

bholtzman

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2016, 04:29:31 am »
Of course you can say "I told you so"! If I'm wrong, I will freely admit it and make sure and tell you.  :)

You don't seem to be responding to my points directly, so I am feeling comfortable. Also, one of our tasks is to provide this custom metadata "overlay" to an existing, full-scale EA project. It seems to be this will be to some degree easier doing it our way.

With regards to BPMN 2.0, that is an MDG right? How long would it take to develop such an MDG for specific requirements? How long would it take to learn how to do it and where do you go for the training materials?

Bill
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 04:55:18 am by bholtzman »

Geert Bellekens

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2016, 09:59:32 am »
With regards to BPMN 2.0, that is an MDG right? How long would it take to develop such an MDG for specific requirements? How long would it take to learn how to do it and where do you go for the training materials?
Yes, the MDG is the "package" to deliver the UML Profile, and other stuff.
If you know what you're doing, making a UML Profile + shapescripts + MDG for say 10 different stereotypes would take about a week or so to develop.
Learning how to do it depends on the student I guess. All the learning material is in the manual and in the learning centre, but it can be hard at times to find it.

Geert

Paolo F Cantoni

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2016, 10:06:29 am »
Bill,

Heed Geert's words.  The way our extensions work is that at the end of the process, you still have a "standard" EA repository.  We have just automated a manual process.  Admittedly, we have "hijacked" some existing fields, but that's something we could do manually.

Before "rolling your own" you need to understand what EA is doing and how it does it.  Then you can determine if that's suitable.  You're correct in saying that you haven't got the "grey hairs" from working with EA for years - that's why you should hire someone who has, to provide knowledge transfer.

As far as Access is concerned, we do use some tables of our own, but they are either temporary tables (in a separate MDB) or metadata tables for managing the process (in the main MDB).  We also have a library of VBA functions that we use for interesting stuff.  Some of the more "out there" things we do under Access automation (via Access macros) are:
  • Creating term objects for holding copies of the names of other objects and associating these terms back to the origin objects - create t_object and t_connector entries
  • Determining if a term is an aggregate of other terms and creating aggregation links between them - in t_connector
  • Automatically creating partial naming links between an object and the set of terms where the term is part of the aggregated name of the object - more t_connector
  • Moving t_object items from wherever that are currently stored (Package) to a standardised location (depending upon which branch of the repository they are located)
  • Moving t_object items from their standard locations to a separate location for special processing and then returning them after
  • Determining what items may have changed since the last processing run, so as to limit the set of items required for special processing

This is to indicate what kinds of things are possible, not to say you should do it.

We are dealing with an enterprise wide repository, supporting potentially tens of teams and hundreds of users (mainly readers), keeping "the ducks in a row" and stopping them becoming cats that need to be "herded" requires this level of automated support.

As mentioned (and reinforced by Geert) our intention is to end up with a repository that can be properly supported by the standard EA UI (even if a bit "kludgy" at times).  We go to a lot of trouble to make sure we don't break anything in the standard product.  Sometimes, our solutions are less than optimal, but still consistent (enough) with standard EA.

HTH,
Paolo
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bholtzman

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2016, 11:38:50 pm »
Geert,
I am becoming convinced that developing our own MDG is the longer term solution. For political reasons we want to demonstrate why that is using the quick and dirty Access method, explaining that they'll need to make a bigger investment if they want it done right and with full capabilities. Does that make you feel better?  :)

I do have one question. I understand that in EA 12 the EA Viewer no longer supported MDGs. Is that true? If so, that could be an issue that tips the scales back the other way.

Paolo,
Thanks for the caveats and detailed info. You guys must really know EA backwards and forwards. Sounds like a fun place to work! Our plan for the short term Access solution is to use a server-based database and put our custom tables in a separate database, using Access to link them and giving the Access front end read only capability for the EA tables. So we will have no way to make edits or change the schema of the EA database and so completely avoid the issue of "contaminating" EA.

By the way for both of you...I assume you're not native English speakers? If so you both have tremendous command of the language, both formally and in your use and understanding of day-to-day expressions! Thanks so much for your help.

Bill

Simon M

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2016, 08:30:53 am »
I do have one question. I understand that in EA 12 the EA Viewer no longer supported MDGs. Is that true? If so, that could be an issue that tips the scales back the other way.
The difference was that the user interface of add-ins wouldn't be displayed. Everything relating to defining an MDG technology will still work. Including the technology broadcast, add-in searches and add-in calls from shape scripts.
Simon

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Paolo F Cantoni

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2016, 09:43:13 am »
[SNIP]
By the way for both of you...I assume you're not native English speakers? If so you both have tremendous command of the language, both formally and in your use and understanding of day-to-day expressions! Thanks so much for your help.

Bill
I was born in the UK to Italian parents, but effectively didn't speak English till I went to school at age 5.  Whether that make me a native English speaker is a moot point.

Geert is the real hero here...

Paolo
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... Therefore, aim for consistency; in the expectation of achieving correctness....
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Glassboy

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2016, 01:32:01 pm »
[SNIP]
By the way for both of you...I assume you're not native English speakers? If so you both have tremendous command of the language, both formally and in your use and understanding of day-to-day expressions! Thanks so much for your help.

Bill
I was born in the UK to Italian parents, but effectively didn't speak English till I went to school at age 5.  Whether that make me a native English speaker is a moot point.

and now you speak 'stralin.  Does that make you tri-lingual?

RoyC

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2016, 01:49:47 pm »
If Paolo speaks Stralin, he might actually speak four languages, since the official language of Straya is Strayn.
Best Regards, Roy

Glassboy

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2016, 02:04:48 pm »
If Paolo speaks Stralin, he might actually speak four languages, since the official language of Straya is Strayn.

'stralin is Kiwi for Strayn.  We're obviously better educated and more literate, and know how to use an apostrophe for contractions rather than just pluralising words :-)

KP

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2016, 02:37:25 pm »
'stralin is Kiwi for Strayn.  We're obviously better educated and more literate, and know how to use an apostrophe for contraction's rather than just pluralising word's :-)
FTFY
The Sparx Team
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Paolo F Cantoni

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2016, 03:18:54 pm »
If Paolo speaks Stralin, he might actually speak four languages, since the official language of Straya is Strayn.
I know some people think I speak fluent "Rubbish".

Maybe I should apply to Rubb for political asylum?

Paolo
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RoyC

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2016, 04:20:07 pm »
Quote
'stralin is Kiwi for Strayn.  We're obviously better educated and more literate, and know how to use an apostrophe for contraction's rather than just pluralising word's :-)

Except that you DON'T use apostrophes for making nouns plural. Apostrophes are used for contractions (as in don't) and for indicating the possessive of an object OTHER THAN 'it' - Brown's car, the dog's breakfast, but never it's possession. Oh - in their guise as single quotes, they are also used to mark 'borrowed' words in a different context, and for indirect quotations (those that do not have an implied 'he said' or 'he wrote' before or after them).

And as I type this, I notice that you have corrected your post. Look, he DID abuse an apostrophe, honest, he did HE DID!    :->

Edit: Or was that Mr KP doing a clean up? Actually, since KP and I are both of English extraction, this says nothing about the Australian 'way with words'. Perhaps a dinky-die Australian could chip in with some limpid prose to refute that fellow from across the Tasman?
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 04:33:25 pm by RoyC »
Best Regards, Roy

Geert Bellekens

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Re: MS Access 2013 and EAP files
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2016, 04:36:03 pm »
Geert,
I am becoming convinced that developing our own MDG is the longer term solution. For political reasons we want to demonstrate why that is using the quick and dirty Access method, explaining that they'll need to make a bigger investment if they want it done right and with full capabilities. Does that make you feel better?  :)
Yes it does  :D
And as Paolo suggested, hiring an EA consultant who has experience with MDG's and stuff will certainly be beneficial. There is a list of Value Added Resellers (such as myself) on the website that you can contact.

By the way for both of you...I assume you're not native English speakers? If so you both have tremendous command of the language, both formally and in your use and understanding of day-to-day expressions! Thanks so much for your help.

Bill
You're welcome. I'm actually a Dutch native speaker, but that doesn't get me very far does it  ;)
So we tend to be good in other languages because we have to

Geert